Where Are The Real Christians? How Curiosity & Courage Can Heal Division Ep 28

A simple prayer can change your whole life: God, help me see the city as you see it. That’s where our conversation with former pastor and LTR Ministries director Collin Packer begins—and it carries us into the uncomfortable, necessary terrain of race, unity, and responsibility in the American church. We trace Collin’s path from suburban bubble to a courtroom seat during the 2019 Botham Jean trial, and the moment he discovered his own namesake enslaved people in the very county he pastored. The question that follows becomes unavoidable: if unity is biblical, what does it ask us to repair?

We talk plainly about the tension many Christians feel—claims of reverse discrimination set against decades of data on systemic disparities, like Black maternal and infant mortality rates that remain high regardless of income. Kelley shares the personal weight of advocating for her children in schools and the ache of hearing “that can’t be true,” while Collin lays out a posture that opens hearts instead of hardening them: lead with curiosity, say “tell me more,” and believe the story. We dig into local history—Dallas highways that split neighborhoods, Fair Park’s legacy, Hamilton Park’s roots—and celebrate the Black church’s witness that broadened the faith of figures like Dietrich Bonhoeffer. When we learn the names, places, and people under our feet, unity stops being abstract and turns into discipleship.

Collin explains how LTR Ministries equips white Christians through a five-week, biblically grounded course that builds language, context, and courage without shifting emotional labor onto people of color. It’s not about guilt; it’s about responsibility and repair. We land with a breath prayer and a calm, steady invitation: learn your city, risk better conversations, and practice unity that costs something. Connect with LTR Ministries at https://ltrministries.com.

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hi friends, this is Kelly Johnson, and you're listening to a bonus episode of In the Flow. This is where I step outside of our normal season themes to share what God is placing on my heart. Sometimes a story, sometimes a prayer, but always spirit-led. If you're new here, make sure to check out past episodes and full seasons where we go deep on themes that really matter. And don't forget, you can also watch the video version of In the Flow on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a beat. Now let's get into the flow together.

Framing The Question Of Unity

SPEAKER_02 0:37

I am so grateful to be on this journey of exploring this question: where are the real Christians? Today

Introducing Colin And Goals

SPEAKER_02 0:44

I'm honored to have my friend Colin Packer, a former pastor and a strategic development director for LTR Ministries, come and talk to me about what does biblical unity look like and what does it not look like. We also spend a lot of time talking about what are the things that we need to do individually to contribute towards biblical unity. All right, Colin, thank you so much for being here with me today. I think you are the first guy on In the Flow, so welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

It's an honor.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yeah. You broke the glass ceiling on In the Flow, so thank you for that. I know that you and I have had the pleasure of serving together in more of a community service sort of civic role. And we've had sort of these sidebar conversations. We've had several coffee chats over the last few years, and I'm so grateful for your friendship and your heart around just being open to the journey of understanding different points of view, leaning into issues of social justice, especially as a former pastor. And so um I just want to thank you for for who you are and and being so open.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Absolutely. It's been an honor to get to know you, Kelly, to listen to your podcast as well. I've been blessed by it and the different voices that have been on there. So to get to add to that group of voices is a real honor and glad to be here for the conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah, thank you.

Colin’s Early Context And Blind Spots

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, let's get started with like you've shared with me your journey, mostly, I think a little after George Floyd, but then also when it hit home in our backyard in Dallas with the murder of Botham Jean. And can you just kind of maybe share how you're coming into this conversation around the divide in the church, especially along color lines? But it's also very much ideological lines as well. So kind of catch us up a little bit on the journey that you've been on.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Sure. Well, my experience growing up was living in very um suburban, predominantly white spaces. That was true in my uh my church growing up. My dad was a pastor. Uh, Churches of Christ was our background, so very conservative, um, kind of independent uh denomination, kind of adjacent to, I guess, Baptists and other other groups like it. Um I so I grew up in in Abilene, Texas, West Texas, uh was uh then grew up for about 10 years in San Diego, California. Uh so a little bit of a different racial makeup in in San Diego, but still a suburban white context for the most part. And then moved to North Dallas, uh, where my family's really been for over 100 years on my dad's side and uh attended uh a private Christian school, which has its own history related to integration. And if you look back at the dates of most of those schools, they start, you know, about that time. And so for the first 30 years of my life, I was very blind to the reality of racism in the city of Dallas, um, how it impacted our churches and our division. It should have been obvious to me. And now having seen new things and coming coming to see so much in different ways, I now wonder how I could have been ignorant, but it is possible living as a majority, which I check off all those boxes in in my life, to live ignorant of the experiences of others and to think that everyone's experiences like yours.

A Prayer That Disrupted Everything

SPEAKER_03 4:01

And it was in 2013 that I went to a racial unity leadership summit in Atlanta, Georgia. Uh, a mentor of mine invited me there and has really been guiding me for the last 12 years or so. And I began to hear a different story about the church and the black church that was a very different experience from what I had experienced. I heard from pastors that actually were from Dallas at that event and was hearing a different story than I had grown up knowing in the city of Dallas. And from there, when I moved to Dallas to pastor a church in Allen on the north side of Dallas in 2014, I came with a prayer on my lips. God, help me see the city as you see the city. And I had no idea how wonderfully disruptive a prayer that would be in my life and what it would lead to. But the answer to that prayer were people of color, Christians of color in particular, many pastors and leaders in churches and others that I've met who've helped me see in better ways. And so I'm empathetic to those who are ignorant. Um, I'm still ignorant and still learning in so many new ways. Um, and so I but at the same time, once we know better, it's important that we do better. And so uh anytime that I have an opportunity to help others along that path and to take a conversation with someone with a different experience than mine, I see it as this continuing answer to a prayer that I've been praying for over a decade, that I've prayed as I drive around the city streets of the area in Dallas that I live. Um, and in every conversation and interaction I have, it's opportunity. And God has been so faithful to broaden my view uh of all that. But yes, in 2018 in the city of Dallas, I've been pastoring for four years in Allen.

Botham Jean And A Pastoral Awakening

SPEAKER_03 5:27

There was a murder of a 26-year-old Caribbean-American man, Botham Jean. He was a Christian, a worship leader in Churches of Christ, the tradition that I was leading in, but in predominantly African-American or black churches. So we didn't really know one another. But when I saw his murder come across the screen, his death, it was an off-duty white officer that came into his own apartment as he was eating ice cream, preparing a worship order for that Sunday. And he was tragically killed in his own apartment with a gunshot with the weapon that she had had brought from the city of Dallas as a police officer. And that led me on a journey of going to that funeral and walking beside other pastors in the city, walking beside the John family that was from St. Lucia and didn't really know how to navigate the court system. But we walked with them, had a racial unity summit in the city of Dallas in the year ahead of that. And then the trial was there for most of the days of that trial. There was a big moment where Brandt John, Botham's brother, actually forgave that officer and hugged her. I was there in the courtroom that day. And since then, over the last eight years or seven years, I guess it's been, uh, have been walking with a group of ministers in my tradition, black and white together in ways that we weren't doing before. And so that's just a little bit of my story about my coming to see in new ways. I've I've tried to read everything and listen to everything that I possibly can, but it has been uh the answer to that prayer through people and Christians in particular that have been extremely helpful to see things in new ways.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Wow. I um I mean, I I've heard this before. It's not like you haven't told me, but you know, I think in this moment, I in the context of this moment, your journey is even more powerful than it already was, right? And that prayer, right? Like how God used people to answer that prayer. And it wasn't clean, you know, it was it was messy, right? And hard and I'm sure uncomfortable. I would love to kind of pull the string a little bit on the uncomfortable part of your journey because as you know, I've I've led and consulted with a number of very large organizations on DEI. I've had a lot of one-on-one private conversations with senior executives, most of whom are white male straight, often Christian. And I have had executives privately tell me, you know, that they're concerned about their children being able to get a job. They're concerned about the kind of the the threat to Christianity. And I'm often, you know, I'm scratching my head a little bit because number one, the data

Discomfort, Family Legacy, And Repair

SPEAKER_02 8:13

doesn't show that white men are being discriminated against. I'm not saying that there aren't isolated issues. I'm sure, you know, it does happen, but the scale of it does not bear out in the data. But then I also think about how did you personally either minimize or navigate work through not being defensive during your your education of hearing different stories? And you said that the stories you heard from black pastors was very different than your story and the stories that you grew up hearing. So how did you not resist what you were hearing?

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, because I want to try to understand what my journey was so I can help others through this similar journey. Discomfort has certainly been a part of it. I mean, to come grapple with your own history, your family history. I mean, I I guess maybe just starting with my name, even. I was named after a church leader that came to Texas early on in the midst of the state and becoming a republic and then a state of the nation. Uh, he was a faith leader in the faith tradition I served in. Uh, his name's Colin McKinney, but right in our area. Collin County is where I live. McKinney, Texas is just up the road. Those are named after my ancestor. And I heard only wonderful things about him growing up. He was a signer of the Texas Declaration of Independence. He had helped start churches across North Texas in the county that now I reside in that is my name. And so those are wonderful things that I heard growing up. But it was watching uh the Roots miniseries that made an impact on so many back in the 70s and the reboot that's happened on the History Channel more recently. That was a uh really a breaking moment for me. I saw just what had been done in our country. And as so many African Americans then sought out to find out, could they find their slavery history and how they came to the country, which is so hard to do so often because of racism and that story in America, I realized that's what I need to do as well. I need to find out what is, is there a slave-owning history for my family? And as I dug into that, Colin McKinney was one of those names I looked at. And sure enough, in the county I live in now, he owned 24 of the 76 slaves in this county. And that had never been told to me when I was growing up. It was just the positive stories. He was going to visit his grave. And there, again, this is the mix of history, is there are good things to talk about, but you can't only look at one side of it. And so as I began to take a direct look, it was uncomfortable. But it was this realization of not only am I named after someone who signed the Texas Declaration of Independence, I'm named after a slave owner. And what does that mean to change a legacy about my own name that I carry, to see repair happen in the now the county that I'm pastoring in at the time? So it's moments like that that you can brush that aside, you can act like it doesn't exist or make an impact. But my question is, what does it look like to repair that? Because the ground, even the Christianity in our county that was planted here, did not see African Americans as full human beings and enslaved them. That's part of my family legacy. That's part of Christianity here. It is, we've seen events of white supremacy take place in this county. I can't help but think back to that and think about how it's even been the gospel that's been misinformed. It's been there, there's blood in the soil that is the result of people like me. And I want to be a part of seeing that change and repairing that. And uh, and so that's really created in me, of course, discomfort at times. But you can either look at that and ignore it, or you can look at your own victimization as you've mentioned. I've seen this a lot here in the recent past. I had a conversation last night on a patio with some friends here in Allen that were talking about that very thing about the white men who seem to feel as if they're victims. And certainly there are stories that people can tell that are individuals. But in the ministry that I work for, LTR Ministries, we talk about racism and we talk about the difference between racism and discrimination that everyone may face to some degree is that, you know, I may have a lot of things that come up against me that are challenges or hurdles or struggles, family of origin issues, class issues that people struggle with, a lot of white people in poverty more than other racial groups, just because the number of white people there are. My skin color has never been one of those things that's created those hurdles. And so that is something that others are facing. Same is true for my gender. Those are things that I don't encounter. And I can find anyone that looks like me in any area and sector of society, others may not have that example that they can look

Data, Systemic Racism, And Curiosity

SPEAKER_03 12:44

to. And so while there are challenges, and I don't want to diminish the individual stories systemically, these are reality, systemic racism that really impact just to see in the city of Dallas that just a couple of miles apart in zip codes, that for men, the difference of life expectancy is 26 years in a two-mile stretch. What are the reasons for that? We have to look into that and grapple with the discomfort of that. That should not be so. That's not how God wants the world to be. And so I think just continuing to lean into the discomfort. There were several values that were important as I was on this journey: uh, vulnerability, courage, curiosity. Curiosity takes a humble posture that says, I'm gonna believe what I'm being told by people who are sharing their stories. I see it all the time as white people who hear a story and they're defensive. Well, that can't be true. Or maybe there's another explanation. I I've just tried to make it my practice to ask when people tell me something hard to say, tell me more, and to believe what they have to say. And that practice has has allowed me, I think, to learn much more. Then when you put up that defensive defensiveness, you're not going to hear anymore. You can't be trusted with more information at that point. But if you'll lean in and ask the question, tell me more, and continue to remain non-defensive and curious, you'll learn so much more. And that's been my journey along these lines.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I love that you're talking about curio curiosity and vulnerability. You know, I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking to myself, where could I be more curious? Right. And at the same time, candidly, as I think about, you know, being on the other side of those conversations when um people, you know, who are white say, you know, I feel threatened, or I feel like, you know, my identity as a Christian or as a white person is at risk or threatened, or I'm being discriminated against, or my children will be discriminated against. It's hard for me to not focus on the harm, right? Like the in the pain infliction that I experience. You know, it's hard for me to not think about what my children have gone through. In particular, my son, you know, as a as a black male, his experience is even different than my daughter's. And having to navigate school conversations for my kids and to really advocate for them in ways that I know for a fact. Um, I actually had, I was in, I was doing a training and um a dad, a white dad, shared that they have two adopted children. One is black, one is white, and both have learning differences. And this white dad said that he has to fight three to five times harder for his black child than he does his white child. And, you know, it's like you grow up in black skin, brown skin, you grow up and you're like, I think this is different. Like, I think what I'm experiencing, I it doesn't seem this hard for people who don't look like me. But when you hear those stories and you see the dichotomy, right? You see, um, I once did a a webinar on systemic racism, and I called it, you know, the tale of two lives, you know, the dichotomy of two different lives and experiences in America. One fact, I did a lot of data, and it was like a lot of side-by-side data. And if we just take maternal and infant mortality rates in the US, black women are three times more likely, black women and black babies are three times more likely to die through pregnancy or childbirth. And when I see that statistic, um, and it's not because of lack of prenatal care, it's not because they're poor, which is what you know, we tend to hear. There are women when when you take out economics, the statistic is the same. Serena Williams also almost died. She's one of the wealthiest, right, black women in this country, and yet she almost died giving birth to her first child. And so it's not about economics, it's not about lack of care. I would argue she's probably pretty healthy too, if I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

And so when I see Christians in America

Parallel Legacies And Local History

SPEAKER_02 17:02

say, you know, they're pro-life, I'm anti-abortion. And I'm like, if you're really pro-life, then why don't you care that a third of black babies die every single year? And it's been that way, I want to say a good 30 to 40 years. I it's I'm a little rusty on the data, but this isn't a new trend. And so it's the hypocrisy, I think, that is so hard for me to wrap my head around. And so I know I've said a lot, but it started off with me saying, you know, how can I be more curious in these conversations? Because I don't I think the other piece that the Lord is really showing me is the things that I accuse other people of doing, I don't want to be that, right? So if I'm pointing to hypocrisy, I don't want to be a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Yeah. Well, when you're talking about black maternal care and and uh this death rate, I think it's a great example of this systemic reality. Uh and we think about the medical industry, right? I mean, even the history of eugenics that affects this conversation about, you know, abortion and birth uh realities, or take the Tuskegee syphilis case, right? That uh actually somebody from our faith tradition, Fred Gray, was the attorney for Rosa Parks and Dr. King early on in the Montgomery bus boycott. He was the one who brought that case, the Tuskegee syphilis case. I've been to his museum, I've seen the history of that. Just what we have done, feeling as if African-American people, people of color in general, just don't feel in the same way as white people or we just don't trust their word about pain tolerance and this sort of thing. That has an effect that makes this kind of difference. And when it happens to Serena Williams, as you mentioned, you know that this is happening down the line when it comes to class at a deeper level, even. But I think medical is just one example of this kind of thing. And so when you hear stories like that, in some ways, to see the systemics behind this race informs that. But to act as if there's not systemic realities is really to be a more make a more racist case because you're saying these people have something problematic with them rather than a system that's at play. And so I this is such a complicated conversation, but data is important in these conversations. But the fact that you have to dig up data, Kelly, in order to even be heard or taken seriously, rather than your own story, which you could tell over and over again about your kids and this sort of thing, you begin to kind of question yourself is this real? When everything in the culture says, well, that can't be true because of such and such. Yes, we have individual stories that we could tell all over the map about challenges that may be out there. But I find it interesting in this moment that people that look like me, that are higher on the privilege scale in so many ways, that we are playing the victim when for years we've been telling others, would you stop playing the race card? Would you stop playing the victim in all these roles? It doesn't make any sense. The ministry and the stance I'm trying to take in this moment is to realize that we can't change anybody's mind if we're not going to be curious and empathetic to where they are. And that's true when it when I cross and have had this prayer answered through

Apartheid Lessons And Responsibility

SPEAKER_03 20:12

the conversations I've had, being curious, I'm having to learn, which is a harder thing, to listen to people who look like me with curiosity and empathy. That's almost become a harder thing, which is strange to say, right? But our ministry is trying to walk beside white people, white Christians in particular. The only way people can have their minds changed or see a larger reality is if whatever they bring to that, the emotion they bring to it, is able to be heard and listened to and not questioned in the same way that they question other stories. And so I had a lot of pain because I was a pastor. I stepped away from that in 2021 after uh raising these issues about racial injustice and really my suburban white church, it was a challenge to raise those things. They saw me on the TV cameras as as we were walking through that trial, as I spoke up about George Floyd in particular. And so it was a choice for me at the time. Am I going to lower my voice and love these people a long way to see things better? We certainly need people to make that more patient decision. Uh, but for me, in the midst of the calling, it was a it was not a time I felt like I could be silent. And so I've stepped away and since then I've done uh several different roles. But right now, it's taken three years at this point, really, for me to walk away from that experience of pain of feeling like I was speaking to the gospel and having white Christians not receive the message I was trying to help them see. And the pain of that and the, you know, not wanting to go back to those spaces, but realizing that's the space I'm called to. I know what it is to be a white pastor. I've grown up in white churches. And if God's convicted my heart, then it's important for me to go back to the space where I've been, where I do have access to rooms that others may not, and to be able to listen empathetically, but also challenge directly and create a space where conversation and curiosity can be nurtured. It's it's hard. It not every uh space is a space that can do that. But certainly in this moment, if we're gonna move beyond the polarization and just the division to extremes, it's gonna be building uh a posture of humility and vulnerability and courage and ultimately curiosity to try to listen to other stories, believe them, and see how that rounds out our vision. So much of scripture speaks to when the Holy Spirit uh grabs a hold of our lives, the Holy Spirit changes our vision, right? I mean, we think about Saul on the road to Damascus, right? This story about approving persecution of other groups. But God touches his eyes in such a way he's blinded, Ananias leads him by the hand and so forth. And when his eyes are opened again, he sees a whole new reality and he begins advocating for this global message about people of all tribes, tongues, and languages, even the Gentiles, are going to be included in this. And he begins to advocate for that. And that's the hope and prayer that we have is that we'll be able to move to a place that people's eyes will be open, that the Spirit does that to all of us. And uh, Pentecost is possible when our eyes become open. When we see the Holy Spirit that's involved in our lives, is the same Holy Spirit across denomination, across race, across gender, across all these divides. That's the kind of space we need to try to create, as difficult as it as it is in this moment to do so.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

That is so much fire there. Thank you. So powerful. Thank you for just sharing where you are and even, you know, being open to share how hard it is to go in spaces where you are with people that look like you and believe similarly or express the same faith, and yet it's difficult, you know, acknowledging the difficulty of having those conversations. Um, wow. If you haven't already downloaded it, my free devotional, God's Not Impressed With Me, goes even deeper into this conversation.

Inside LTR Ministries’ Approach

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Especially if you're feeling spiritually dry, disillusioned, or just out of alignment. It's free, available on my website, Iam KellyJohnson.com, and the link is in the show notes. We could go so many different angles, but I do want to just stick a pin in this really quickly. I think it's interesting. You you talked about your history and where you got your name or who you were named after. And I just want to share, because I don't think we've talked about this before, but you and I have in common sort of an ancestral tie to the church. Um, so my great-great-grandmother was the matriarch of the first black church in Dallas and Mount Pisgah Baptist Church. And it's still around, it's now in the historic registry. They had to have a white pastor sort of be their oversight in order to start. And my family, the Turner family, was a prominent family in the starting of Mount Pisgah. We're in the history records, they they have a whole kind of mini museum inside the church, which is really cool. Like there's actually photos of the matriarch, which, as you know, having portraits of a black person back then was extremely difficult to get. And so we also have been able to sort of trace our plantation roots from Turner, the original slave owner where we came from, where our family name came from, moved to Texas. And that's how my family ended up being sort of planted in Dallas. And what's interesting is once a month, the turners, the white turners and the black turners, come together on a Zoom call. And so, in terms of just seeing kind of this full circle moment of families trying to wrestle and work through a history that, yes, no one who's here right now was a part of creating it, but to to be a part of a family that is working through that messiness, that difficulty, um, and and hearing each other's stories. As a matter of fact, our family reunion was just a few months ago in Dallas. Um and turners from all over came to the Dallas area. They went to Mount Pisgah and we attended a service together, and then we toured kind of the archive room, the little mini museum. Um, and so I just wanted to add to this sort of exploration of history because you shared yours and and I, you know, I've been exploring my own history, and I'm grateful that I do have actual artifacts of the journey, because I know so many black people do not have the beauty or the benefit of records, historic records. And so, whatever level someone can have, I think just to tie together both of our stories, I think it's important to explore what you can. And even if you can't explore your own family's personal history, to get to know about more of your city. If you live in the Dallas area, learn about Bonner, the Bonner family. You know, the Turners and the Bonners were like this. We married Turners and Bonners married each other a lot. And so there's certain families in

Resources, Access, And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 27:04

the Dallas area. Turner's Fields and Um Bonners were three large families that contributed to the fabric of Dallas. And so, whatever your city is, I think do the work to understand what who were the Native Americans that were original to your region. Understand who was on this soil before even slaves were here, right? Before the slave owners were here. I think we owe it to ourselves to understand who are the indigenous people that occupied this land that were uprooted. What what was their lives like? What do we know about the Caddo Indians who were very prominent in the Dallas area? And so I think we all owe it to ourselves to understand what's at least around us within sort of our immediate places where we live and work.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

What an incredible legacy. I I hadn't heard that story before about the Turners. But my my parents live, and where I grew up in high school was right around Anderson Barn Bonner's property there in North Dallas, not far from Hamilton Park, an area that has a rich history as well. And so, yes, learning the history of a city that is divided up in particular ways, our highways and how they've split communities. There's so much to learn about the city of Dallas that I think enriches our lives, helps us understand the beauty uh that's there, not just the negative stories that we sometimes tell, to go to the state fair like I went to just this last weekend with my family, but to know the history of Fair Park and uh the imminent domain and the less than proper funds that we're given for that property, that's an important history to know that gives us context for the ongoing work we do. When we look at COVID maps and we look at redlining maps, we see how those maps still make a difference and shape the reality of our world today. But they're beautiful stories, just like you're sharing about uh Mount Pisgah and uh about a faith that is in life. And I've

Breath Prayer And Closing

SPEAKER_03 29:04

been so appreciative of learning about the black church and its gift. And I think this is a treasure that white people need to come to understand more. Recently, I was looking at the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and a lot of things that are going on in our world and our country. And uh there's an excellent book that really helped me see how it was the black church in New York City. When he was at Union Theological Seminary, it was the Black Church that really was what helped him see Jesus in a whole new way. And it's been the faith of Dr. King and so many others that we could point to and the ongoing witness of the Black Church that has helped me see faith is more than just kind of this how do we get to heaven when we die? But what does it look like to see justice done? And my church experience growing up really didn't round out the full gospel until I was able to see what how others have contributed to that. That when you have privilege, it's easy to kind of have the luxury of turning a blind eye to how the gospel shapes and can reform so many different things and how justice is a part of it. And so right now I'm I'm reading everything I can. And I I want to know more about your family and how that shaped our city. So I look forward to following that up in one of those conversations that God's blessed me with over and over again. So we'll do that next time, Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yes, absolutely. I have to also share. I'm like, I want to talk about biblical unity and I promise we'll get there. But I think you know I was in South Africa recently serving with the ministry. And man, talk about deep institutional racism. You know, the one thing I will say about South Africa, and I only got the glimpse of it, and I was in the very touristy areas. So I just want to kind of preface what I'm going to say. Um, that I got a very limited view, but from what I learned in talking to some people that are from there, black people, they were sharing that in some of the townships entire communities were paid by alcohol. When they worked for white families, they were only given alcohol, no money, no cash. And to this day, decades after apartheid is over, this same township still has an alcoholism problem.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Of course, right? And so I'm like, wow. And yet, those same people who had to survive off of alcohol, I don't know how they did it, but those same people who had to survive, feed themselves, feed their children, clothe their children in themselves, somehow provide a roof over their heads. Those same people who survive that are the same people who are getting blamed for their substance abuse problems. Right? Why haven't you pulled yourself up? Yet there's these decades of systemic oppression and just harm. And that's just one example. But you know, there's still places in South Africa that I couldn't go. I was gonna be asked to leave, right? And I remember wanting to go to church while I was there. I ended up not mostly because of a scheduling thing, but I was talking to a fellow volunteer who who was also white, and she was giving me a couple of recommendations for possible churches. And I made the comment, oh, you know, I I probably need to research their websites because I don't know if they're going to allow me there. And she had no comment. It was almost as if that's your problem. Like she moved on, like she kind of exited the conversation. And I thought I'm serving alongside you. We're we're here to support this ministry and do, you know, hopefully do some good for the time that we're here. And I would love to go to church, but I have to really fear my safety. And that's not something that I'm accustomed to experiencing, thankfully, in America, to, you know, for the most part. But there it's a different level. The threat level is different. And I had to be aware of that. And so to not even have the empathy, like you said, of wow, you know, that's a really good point. Let me see if I can find anything out for you. That's what empathy, a little bit of allyship would have looked like in that moment. But instead, I got nothing.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Yeah. I one of the things we teach in our ministry is that uh it's really not helpful to take on the past from a place of shame and guilt. But what about responsibility, right? To hear a comment like that, Kelly, and to just leave it is to say, well, I guess I'm not responsible because that's not my reality. Or it's just to hear it and not have it really go anywhere past just our ears, right? But what are we responsible for as a result of what's taken on in the place? It may not be our guilt that's led us there, but we should be responsible for seeing it be a safer and better place everywhere we live. And so that's one of the words that that I've been trying to live into is when I hear a story like that, how do I not just brush it off and think, well, uh, thank goodness I don't have to think about that, right? But what would it look like to build a better world and how can I be responsible for that?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

That's so good. So this might be a good time, Colin, too, talk about the work you do with LTR ministry. So um I think for people who are looking for support and resources, I know you've all do amazing work. So do you want to touch on that?

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Yes. My first interaction with LTR Ministries was when I was a minister uh in Allen and our black and white churches in our uh faith tradition had come together after George Floyd. We were trying to figure out how to take our next steps. And it was clear that the white uh congregations really needed to bring along lay leaders and elders beyond just the preachers who were meeting for lunches. And so we thought that would be a great thing would be to do some more racial awareness to help see what we can't see without education and that sort of thing. And so we found this ministry, LTR Ministries. Their curriculum is a five-week uh curriculum that helps it focuses on white Christians, with white Christians leading this, which creates some questions for people about what do you have to teach as a white person? But it was really in the midst of George Floyd that I heard lots of people of color in this space as I was trying to learn more say, you know, white people don't have to wait on us to always educate them. In fact, that's re-traumatizing. And this is work that's out there that you can put in the work yourself to learn instead of depending on others to do that work for you. And so Shelly Park, David Park, who lead our ministry, they heard that message and they said, well, that's something we can do. If we're being called on to begin that education process and uh take some of that trauma that people of color might be taking on otherwise, we can take that on and we'll start the process. And then how do we get them engaged in multiracial conversations and multiracial work? But start the process of learning rather than creating trauma without doing your work of learning first. So we have a five-week uh Zoom course. We also have live classes for churches that we offer to talk about the buzzwords that sometimes we run away from about white supremacy and white privilege and uh white fragility. And we we always look through a biblical lens, through a historical lens, and a societal lens. And what we're trying to give people are lenses, glasses to see the world in a different way, as I've described that I needed. And we've had uh over 900 people now who've been through our classes right now this fall. We're we're having several in the Dallas area uh in in churches where we're teaching this in person. And beyond that, we're building out our second class, which is gonna be a Latin American course. We realize that uh the history of race is uh is diverse. And so uh we're gonna be hopefully launching that in in January in a public way. And we have plans in the future to have a Native American course, as you've mentioned that, the people who are original here, and then also an AAPI course. And so we're trying to look at white supremacy from all these different angles to create the kind of safety for conversations that white people can ask questions they may not uh feel like are good questions to ask in other spaces, but they're curious about they they need help processing that. And then where can we work with leaders of color to lead these classes to make sure that they're the ones who are making sure that what we're doing is not soft pedaling the story, but is what the gospel would have us teach, what's true to history. Um, and then getting people to a place they feel comfortable having a conversation with a neighbor that they may not have had. We have a lot of people that come through our course that say, you know, I just didn't know, I hadn't seen these things. And they may have a neighbor that they felt like they were close with, but the reality is if if you're close with a person of color as a white person and you've never talked about race, you may think this is a friend that hasn't moved to the depth of friendship that it needs to move to. And there are more helpful ways to do that than there are less helpful ways. And when we're defensive and question those stories, it's gonna hurt the relationship. But when we're able to lean in and say, I've been part of this class and I'm seeing things I've never seen before, I just wonder what is it like to be uh in this neighborhood and what has been your experience? Have you had experiences with the police that maybe I haven't had before? What's your kids' experience in our school system? All of a sudden, those stories, if you'll lean in and listen, uh you'll learn a ton if you have those conversations. So that's what we do is through this biblical lens, through the historical lens, try to educate white Christians and then move into more multiracial spaces and ministries to help engage in the work of justice in a better way.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Wow. Well, thank you for the work that you're doing. And through you, I actually got to meet the parks. Um, and so I just love what you all are doing. I do, I will say it's kind of like the one time I have a little bit of FOMO because I'm like, you all are doing such great work, but I love that you are creating a safe space for white Christians um to ask questions that maybe if I'm in the room, they don't, you know, they wouldn't feel as comfortable asking it. And I do think that that's important in any in any learning situation. We need to feel safe. We need to feel like there truly is no dumb question. And so I just love the work that you're doing. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you all?

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Yeah. So our our website you can find at Ltrministries.com. We have classes that are public classes. All throughout the year, we've got options. Uh, if maybe your church, you're thinking, I'd love for my pastor or a group of friends to do this in our small group. I'd love to interact with you. Uh my email address is Colin C O L L I N at Ltr Ministries.com. And uh I'd I'd be happy to just have a cup of coffee with you and find out ways that we could partner together or get you in a class if that's what you'd like to do. And our classes are open to all. We have people of color who uh jump into these classes, and so it's not at all exclusionary in that sense, but uh it does center whiteness uh in those conversations. We have had people of color that have said it's been so powerful to just listen in and hear white people begin to grapple with these things and what we gain from people of color sharing their stories to add to uh, you know, the theology and the history that we're walking through is always a benefit uh in those classes. Um so yeah, that's how you can get uh involved and in touch and uh love to answer any questions that people have if they want to get in touch with me.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Wonderful. Well, I'll be sure to put the website in the show notes so people can link there. But I would highly recommend, you know, we all need to go on our own journeys in our own pace, and it's it's a never-ending journey. And so I love that LTR Ministries is a fantastic biblical tool and resource. So thank you for the work that you and the team are doing there. Okay, I think this is a good place for us to pause for now. We've covered so much territory, the heartbreak, the questions, the disillusionment that so many of us are still feeling. And honestly, I think it's important to just sit with all of this for just a moment. In part two, Colin and I go even deeper into the theological implications, the systemic barriers, and what it looks like for real Christians to walk this out with power, clarity, and conviction. So let's all just take a moment to take a breath before we transition to our next thing. You might want to consider a breath prayer. You might want to practice box breathing. Let's just take a deep breath together and then hold for a few seconds and then exhale slowly.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Let's do that again. Inhale slowly and hold at the top and release.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Thank you, Lord, for your peace. We breathe in your peace and we release all our worries and fears. It's in your name and we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Thank you for flowing with me today. Subscribe to In the Flow on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube, and be sure to grab your free devotionals on my website, iamkellyjohnson.com. Until next time, stay in the flow.