The Listening Leader: How To Experience The Miraculous Ep 38

He grew up surrounded by the occult and trained to “hear” spiritual voices then he met Jesus and discovered a startling truth: the enemy imitates what God designed. Pastor Jamal Maxsam joins us to unpack his message that the miraculous is our normal, not a once-a-year moment or a gift reserved for a few “special” people. If you’ve ever wondered why faith can feel dry, distant, or overly intellectual, this conversation offers a different path: daily attunement to the Holy Spirit.

Resources Mentioned In This Episode (contains affiliate links)

Called Out: Dismantling The Occult and Living With The Power of Jesus As Your Normal by Jamal Maxsam

https://amzn.to/40UcluG

The Believer's Authority by Kenneth Hagin Sr.

https://amzn.to/4bAhrSQ

We get practical about what it means to become a listening leader in life, work, and leadership. We talk about prayer as a real conversation, why waiting in stillness matters, and how God’s guidance can sound like your own thoughts at first. You’ll hear simple ways to test what you’re sensing: alignment with Scripture, consistency with God’s character, and the fruit of the Spirit. We also share why writing things down matters, how journaling reveals patterns over time, and why stewardship of “small” promptings often leads to greater clarity.

We also go straight at tough topics: are miracles still for today, what Holy Spirit power is for, and why trauma and spiritual lies can mute identity and authority. Pastor Jamal reframes spiritual warfare as taking territory, not living on defense, and reminds us that identity in Christ changes how we lead, decide, and serve.

If you want Christian leadership that’s grounded, Spirit-led, and courageous, press play. Subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review with the moment that challenged you most.

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Kelley's book about overcoming trauma to find your God-given purpose.

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Kelley Johnson is a creator, builder, and catalyst who helps leaders achieve breakthrough—personally, professionally, and spiritually. She spent 20 years in corporate leadership before founding KEIRUS, a learning and talent management firm serving thousands of leaders worldwide. 

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Keywords: Christian women, Spirit-led living, Holy Spirit, faith podcast, women in leadership, working ...

Transcript

Welcome And Season Vision

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to In the Flow, a podcast for women pursuing God's spirit in life and leadership. I'm Kelly Johnson, and this season, we're exploring what it means to become the listening leader. Because clarity and alignment with the Lord create a more impactful leader. Each conversation invites you to slow down, lean in, and lead from a place of attunement with the Lord so that we can grow in spirit-led wisdom and authentic power. Let's get in the flow. If you've been listening to In the Flow for a while, or if you're new here, first of all, I want to thank you and welcome you to the show. But one of the things that I try to do with In the Flow is to explore thoughtful stories, theological wisdom, and therapy-informed tools. And so what that means is I often invite a pastor to be a part of the conversation for the topic that we're exploring for a season. In this season around The Listening Leader, I am thrilled to have Pastor Jamal Maxim join me. Pastor Jamal is an author and host of a podcast called The Miracle Leader. He's also a mentor and a coach. I recently came to know Pastor Jamal really by listening to his podcast and especially his Monday morning prayer live stream service that he provides on all the major platforms. One of the reasons why I wanted Pastor Jamal to be a part of this season is because he really embodies listening and walking boldly in God's direction. Pastor Jamal would say that he is an igniter of miracle leaders. And I know that you're going to enjoy this conversation where we really dive into what he says is that the miraculous is our normal. And I believe that a part of walking in the supernatural beauty of God is that we have to attune to his Holy Spirit. So welcome to the show. Be sure to like, subscribe, and share. And let's get in the flow. Today we are in for a treat as I welcome Pastor Jamal to In the Flow, who will help us continue on this journey of becoming listening leaders. And one of the reasons why I asked Pastor Jamal to come on. So thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I'd been kind of following you on socials for a little bit. I'd been watching your live stream prayers that you do every Monday consistently, even during holiday weeks and on holidays. So your faithfulness and your consistency definitely stood out, but just your boldness to pray in the spirit on all the major social platforms, including LinkedIn, was really, really just so compelling to me and so inspiring. And as I knew that the Lord had placed in my spirit for us to talk about what it means to become a listening leader and to stay in that place of hearing his spirit and his guidance and everything that we do, I knew I had to have you on because you talk a lot about how the miraculous is our normal. And so I would love to just hear from you. Let's start the conversation with like, where did that phrase come from? And how did you come to even get that?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah, that's that's that's a that's a very good question to start because two things. It came from two different spaces. One, it came from my journey coming to Christ, because you know I was raised in the occult. I was taught to be a psychic medium, and I did these readings and all of those things,

The Miraculous As Normal Life

SPEAKER_00 3:55

and that organization that I grew up in mimicked the church. They called themselves a church, and but they took scripture all out of context. And so what while I was in that world growing up, the supernatural was normal. It was normal for spirits to talk to people. It was normal for spirits to turn on lights. Um, there was a spirit that used to turn on the light for myself and my grandmother before we would enter the house. It was normal for that kind of activity. And so when I came to Jesus and renounced all of those things and got delivered, I recognized one, the enemy copies he can't create. And the normalcy of demonic manifestation was an imitation of the normalcy that God desires to have with his people. God desires to be active, to talk, and to make himself known and real daily. And what I found as a believer is that many believers, they have categorized the miraculous to an especially event. So they think I gotta have the big name evangelist come and we gotta have services for a week straight or two weeks straight if it's really good. And then we pray, we pray, we pray, we fast, we fast, and then a miracle will happen. We shout, woohoo, and then we want it to happen again. But as I thought about how life used to be in the kingdom of darkness, and then looking at how God desires to interact with his people, the miraculous is normal. And the miraculous is not a special event, but it's actually a dimension that we live from because the miraculous was normal for Jesus when we study his life everywhere he went. There were miracles, there were signs, there were wonders. We actually never see him praying for a miracle to happen to him, but miracles happen through him, which was another thing that the Lord spoke to me about. And so I recognized that this is our normal life. We're supernatural by design. And so I started saying it to help people get it in their spirit that wait a minute, this is supposed to be normal for me because I'm in covenant relationship with God. You know, so that's where that came from.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Wow. So what do you think prevents us from operating in the miraculous?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Well, a couple of things. The first thing is kind of what I alluded to earlier, that people think the miraculous is restricted to certain people or places. Some people think you have to have the gift of miracles to operate in the miraculous, which is not true. And some people think you only are supposed to see miracles within the four walls of a what we call the church, but I call it a worship fellowship because the

Why Believers Miss The Miraculous

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Bible describes us, the believer, as the church. So some people think that the gifts of Holy Spirit and the miraculous should only happen during a worship service in a building versus recognizing that Holy Spirit is with us all the time. He's always speaking and he always desires to use us to draw people to Jesus. And so that's one of the things or two of the things I think um prohibit people from really embracing this miraculous lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah. So, Pastor Jamal, in the context of us operating as listening leaders, and clearly within the within this conversation, leadership to me is not a title, right? Yes. Um we're all leaders. Um ideally, we're leading ourselves first. Um, we're leading our homes. Um and and so I've personally think you could disagree, but I personally feel like if we are operating in the miraculous, we have to sharpen our ability to hear from Holy Spirit. And so I would just love to get your thoughts on that and also sort of what's been your journey to sharpening your ears to the kingdom, because I know that in your background, you your ears were attuned to the darker side or to the dark side.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah. And so when we, as we are, let me say it this way, as leaders, it's important to hear the voice of the Lord because leadership is a spiritual gift. Many people think that if they learn leadership principles or if they, you know, follow the formula of leadership or even imitate what is taught to them about leadership research, that they're going to produce the same result, which is not true. Leadership is a spiritual gift and it's an expression of God. And so, how can we think about functioning in a spiritual gift without knowing the voice of God who gives and causes the gift to activate through us? But I so I think, you know, when people think about listening leaders, they think about listening to other people and they think about the works about listening to understand versus listening to hear. But that thing applies to God. Because here's the thing about leadership, and one of the myths that I talk about is, and you mentioned it too, so I'm sorry, but we um actually don't lead ourselves as believers. As believers, we're being led by Holy Spirit. Unbelievers lead themselves because they are led by their soul and their carnal nature. But as believers, we never should be leading ourselves. We should first be submitting to God because Jesus is our Lord. So we are following Christ. And as we're leading, people follow us as we follow Christ. So our ability to lead is in direct proportion to our ability to follow. And so we have to be able to be attuned to the voice of God. And one of the things that um you were sharing about just being attuned to his voice is we have to know one that he's speaking and that he speaks to us. And we have to recognize that sometimes when he speaks, we may think it's our own thoughts because God will speak when he initially starts helping us to recognize his voice, it may sound like our own thoughts. So we may be like, Did I think that? But half the time, that when the thing is superior to something you thought and it's in alignment with the word, it's the voice of Holy Spirit. And so sometimes his voice will sound like our own thoughts. Sometimes he will speak through us seeing the same message over and over. Like you can be driving in your car, you can see a phrase, and then you can turn on, you know, stream. You can be streaming a channel, we don't turn on television anymore. You could be streaming something and you'll see that phrase. Or you'll be watching a movie and they'll say something and it'll just kind of prick you, like, wait a minute. And so God speaks through a variety of ways. Of course, we know he speaks through his word, but as you know his word, you can recognize how he's speaking through other methods by conf that confirms the word, never contradicts. And so I believe that's part of it, but there's a posture that comes with it. There's a posture of listening. Because I find that when I teach people on prayer and hearing the voice of God, it's one-sided. They sit, they pray, and then they say, Amen and get up. Versus they sit, they have conversation, and then they wait and listen for what God will say. Because a lot of times in Habakkuk, we quote where he where it's written, write the vision and make it plain. But before Habakkuk heard that, he said, I will go to my watchtower to see what he will say to me. So there's a position of listening for the voice of the Lord that allows you to listen to the voice of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Before we continue, let me ask you, have you ever wondered how to tell if it's God's voice or just your own thoughts? In the flow is so much more than a podcast. Each season, I produce a free resource to support your growth. And for this series on the listening leader, I created a free devotional called How to Hear God at Work. It'll help you slow down and recognize God's leading in everyday decisions, whether you're leading a team, a business, or your own heart. Visit im KellyJohnson.com and click on the resources

Free Devotional And Hearing God

SPEAKER_01 12:27

section to get your free copy today. I love the fact that you're talking about prayer and that that posture of waiting. Yes. Um, after we pray to just hear. I'm gonna try to come back to that because that's so good. But I do want to, and I love that you shared a different perspective about what I said about we we had we should be leading ourselves first. So I want to get your thoughts on this. When I think of leading myself, I'm leading myself by choosing to follow the Lord. I'm leading myself to die daily, moment by moment, not follow what the flesh wants, which I'm not always, I'm definitely not perfect at. I just want to sort of clarify and feel free to push back or share a different perspective. But when I say leading self, I think what I really mean

Stillness Practice That Trains Listening

SPEAKER_01 13:20

is that it's not my business to be trying to lead someone else, that I'm doing good to just do do my best to follow the Lord and hear from him.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

That's good. And I love that definition because that's not the standard definition of self-leadership. But what you're what it sounds to mean like what you're saying really is self-discipline.

unknown 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Because it's the exercising of our will to follow God and to keep our flesh under subjection and to keep our thoughts under subjection, and that's discipline. My mentor once told me that the Lord spoke to him and he shared it with me. He said, the Lord spoke to him one day and said, To the degree by which you discipline yourself is the same degree to which you will walk in the promises I have for you. And so everything that you are sharing is a necessity because how can we lead other people if we don't know how to discipline ourselves? How can we, because leadership is influence. The basic definition that most people agree upon now is influence. And based on the research, nobody really knows can come up with a common definition of leadership, which is so funny to me. And so, and we think about it that when we are disciplining ourselves, we are making that conscious choice to allow Holy Spirit to be the primary influencer of our lives. That we don't let other people, we don't let the information, and we don't let our own thoughts. And so I love what you were sharing because that's that is key, and that's number one before you can influence other people. Because here's the thing I found about leadership. When people submit to the leader, they are actually submitting to the spirit that motivates that leader or the spirit that that leader is submitted to. And so what you're saying is important.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I think there's a distinction between self-reliance, which I've operated in most of my life, uh, versus at least the the loose definition I'm using of self-leadership, which is choosing to submit, choosing to even seek the Lord, right? That's a choice to seek Him, to it's a choice to read His Word, it's a choice to pray, it's a choice in how I spend my time. And I'll come back now to sort of that posture of prayer that you talked about, because it's actually connected from my own journey of submitting to the Lord. And so a couple of years ago, actually, I have to back it up. This is pre-COVID. I used to lead a women's small group. And one of the members of our small group, Brittany, who's actually been on the show a few times, she challenged me. She's like, Kelly, I just want you to spend 15 minutes a day just sitting still, not doing anything. I thought she told me to go jump off of the highest mountain. Like that sounded so foreign. Like I was like, what, 15 minutes? Like it, it the thought of it made me almost physically ill. Like, what do you mean? 15 home, that is a long time to sit and do nothing. And so that was again pre-COVID that she challenged me with that. And I thought she was crazy. Fast forward about two or three years ago, I was at a retreat, a women's retreat, and I was praying and having some quiet time. And the Lord was like, I need you to give me your morning. And I was like, What you talking about, Lord? You know, I'm a I'm more of a nighttime person. I do my devotional at night, and he's like, You can do that too, but I need you to sit in stillness with me in the morning. And he wasn't asking me for a long time, five, 10 minutes. You know, I I I sensed and I knew it wasn't like he was like, you gotta spend 30 minutes, an hour, or whatever. But I knew he wanted me to carve out it about 10 minutes every morning to just sit in stillness with him before I started my phone, before I started scrolling and things like that. And so I was like, okay, I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that. And I that journey of sitting in stillness started about two or three years ago when I would do at first I didn't even really know what that looked like. I would do kind of my normal prayer, and then I was like, I'm just gonna ask a question, Lord, is there anything that you want me to focus on today? Is there anything that you want to share with me? Like what's on your heart, Lord? And I learned to just sit in stillness and hear. And it got to a point where I started writing down in my phone what I would hear after I just sat there in silence. And I'll may maybe one day I'll share what those are, but they all it was interesting. I'll give a little bit of a preview. They all started the way the Holy Spirit talked back to me. It always started with my daughter.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

My daughter. And I was like, it it was foreign, it was a new experience for me. That probably was my early days of practicing what you just talked about from Habakkuk, of I will go to that position so that I can hear and then I will write.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yes, that's good. I love that. And that's the same practice that I do. I will, I will pray. Um, if there's something specific that I pray, I'll pray in English. But I also spend um the majority of my prayer time, I'm praying in supernatural languages. And even now, before I prayed in supernatural languages, I can't, I was like, what did I used to say all that time? You know, because I just wonder, it's like, what was I talking about? What did I say? I I know I had to just ramble on. And so I'll pray in supernatural

Capture God’s Voice In Real Time

SPEAKER_00 19:07

languages. Other times I'll I'll just sit quietly, like um like what you said. And I have my, I'll put a note in my phone or I use a particular app so I can pull it on my computer as well. And I date it. So I'll put like the date, and then I'll just wait to hear what he says to me. And when he speaks to me, I type in. But I find sometimes he doesn't say anything in those moments. When I'm sitting and just being with him in the stillness, sometimes he don't say nothing. And then when I start doing something later, it'd be like boom. It I know sometimes we you hear people use the phrase download, but that's what it seems like. Because it'll be like all of a sudden it'd be like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It'll just start coming. And you and I'll be trying to capture it as quick as I can. And but one thing that I I notice is I one thing that I do is I always try to capture what Holy Spirit is saying when he's saying it. Because I realize he's got, he's not obligated to repeat himself. I can't be like, oh, that was good and not capture it, thinking, one, I'm gonna remember it, or two, that he's gonna say it again. There was one time when he said something to me and I didn't capture it, and I repented and I was like, please say it again. I mean, he did. He said it again and I captured it, but it's one of those things that, you know, that's it's just sweet to experience the Lord that way. And I believe that's how we're intended to, but it takes discipline like what you were sharing because it may seem foreign, because we're so used to being busy. We're so used to checking things off the task list. Did I pray my 30 minutes? Boom, good, go to the gym, did I get my 30, 40 minute workout and boom? Did I, you know what I'm saying? So we're so used to moving, moving, moving, moving, moving that we forget that God operates outside of time and time is a created thing. And so he's unbothered. It's so it's like he don't, sometimes it's like, Lord, you don't have nothing else to do, but he really don't because the works were finished. And so all he has, all he has to do is spend time with us. And so, and that's his joy and his delight. And so it takes that that discipline to sit and to listen, but also to think about the scripture. And I was looking at this earlier where it tells us to pray without ceasing, knowing that prayer is that it's that posture of communing. Because you can't talk nonstop. I know my wife thinks I can, because she thinks I talk a lot. And my daughter probably thinks I can as well. But it's the posture of listening all the time. That whenever he speaks, you're ready to hear. And so we can. Take that into our space as leaders, whether we're leading our own business or because I know your audience is our primary leaders, where we're leading business, our own business or leading in corporate, we can't compartmentalize or even regulate is a stronger word, when God is going to speak. Because God is God. He speaks when he wants to. And so, because of that, we have to remember when we're at work or when we're leading people and when we're going about our day, we have to allow ourselves to listen for his voice. It's almost like giving him permission to speak, but he doesn't need it. But it's giving ourselves permission to hear because we never realize, we never know what God may say for the people that surround us or for the solution that we're seeking. Because some solutions, and I and I firmly believe this, many of the solutions to the problems that are faced in business or in life with our families or whatever the case may be, they have to come from God. The problems were solved, the problems were made by people, but they can only be solved by God.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Okay, so I want to let's try to make it practical because there could be people who are listening, and I know that there are some Christians who, I believe the term is cessationist, who believe that the miracles of that Jesus performed were just in the biblical times. And then there might be some people who are like, I don't even know what this looks like. I mean, okay, I get maybe that's pretty practical to pray and then just sit in stillness to listen. But I could also guess that there might be people like, well, how do I know that what I think I hear as I'm sitting in stillness, how do I know that that's really Holy Spirit and not just my own thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

That's good. That's a very good question. Um, but let's let's deal with the the some who may believe that the miracles were over. It's very interesting that that many people believe that, just like many people believe that there are no more apostles or no more prophets, because they just because you close the book doesn't mean what God is doing is over. Because here's the thing the Bible talks about one, he tells us in the book of Mark to go and make disciples. And he says, these signs follow them that believe. So that wasn't an exhaustive list, it was a very short list

Are Miracles Still For Today

SPEAKER_00 24:35

of signs. See, the purpose of a miracle, a sign, or a wonder, even when you look at the Greek definition of those words from scripture, they refer to pointing people to something. So as long as Jesus tarries, there will be signs performed in the earth to point people to him. He told Moses in Israel, I'm gonna do signs among you that have never been done before in the earth. Jesus, now here's the thing too. Jesus said, the works I do, you're gonna do in greater works than these. So if the works, and when Jesus talks about works in scripture, he's talking about a sign, a wonder, or a miracle. So why would he say that we would do the same thing he did in greater if they were stopping? And then some people, they get logical when they are interpreting scripture, because some people approach scripture purely academically. When you study scripture, you should know the historical context, the cultural context, so you can understand how the people understood what God was saying when he first spoke it. But because the word is timeless, because it's living, even though it's printed on a page, because Jesus is the word made flesh. The Bible is the word printed on a page. And so, because of that, there has to be the revelatory understanding of what God is saying. And so some people look at it purely academic, which then gives the risk of religion. Some people get so revelatory that they get out there and into some spooky-ooky stuff, some new age stuff, because they don't have the biblical foundation. So we have to have both. So when when, and so I say that to say some people have said that when Jesus was saying the works I do, you do in greater, he was some people try to say, but Jesus was saying we're gonna do more because there are there are more believers, and it was just one Jesus walking earth. But that's not true either. Because Jesus sent out the 12, gave them authority, sent them out. Then he sent out 72 more. So Jesus was empowering people to do what he did. And here's the thing, here's the thing. Jesus said, the works I do, I only do because I see my father doing. And then he said, You're gonna do what I do, and then you're gonna do greater because I go to the Father. Now, when we look at that totally in context, what it meant when Jesus ascended is he said he would send Holy Spirit. See, the problem is some people think Holy Spirit is a filling or it and not the not the spirit of God. Holy Spirit is God in the form of a spirit. And so, and so because Holy Spirit has come, because we don't have to ask him to come because he already came in Acts 2. And so that's why some people pray that and they don't get their prayer answered because God has like been there, done that. You need to move on, kind of situation. And so, because Holy Spirit has come, he empowers us to do the miraculous. And we can't really effectively witness, I know this is going to step on some theological toes, without performing the miraculous. That's why he told the same disciples he sent out before. He said, before he said, wait in Jerusalem until you are endowed with the power on high and you receive Holy Spirit, who I spoke of before. And then he tells them, When you receive Holy Spirit, you also will receive power. And then you will be my witnesses. That word power there is the Greek word dunymus, which means might, ability, strength, and the ability to work miracles. So Holy Spirit gives us the ability to work miracles. Why would he do that if they were over? See, the deception of that thought of miracles being over is one that tries to keep believers living and believing and operating beneath their identity. And when we live and operate beneath our identity, then souls do not come to Christ. All of creation groans for the manifestation of those of us believers who operate in sonship. So the earth is groaning for us to be who we are, but if we don't be who we are, the earth continues to groan. And there's a less expression of the glory of God in the earth, which means less people come to Jesus. So this is why we have to operate in the miraculous. Because the thing about it, and I didn't say this earlier, is that the enemy has done a good job of marketing the supernatural as his through horror movies and through demonic manifestations, through psychics, through mediums, which is why you can go to a business conference now and they have a psychic or they have somebody talking about the law of attraction, or they got you doing yoga if you at an overnight conference, and all of those things are spiritualist and occult practices. And so why would God stop manifesting his power to only allow the enemy to manifest a counterfeit appearance of power? Because the enemy doesn't have power. The scriptures say he's been disarmed. So everything the enemy does is a magic trick, it's a counterfeit. And so we must walk in the miraculous today. And I believe God is equipping us and positioning us to do that.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

The uh scripture also says that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So if he stopped doing miracles and if he stopped performing miracles through us, then that scripture wouldn't be true, right? That's so good. Uh so that's I think the other way my my mind and my heart were going in this conversation around people who believe that those days of the miracles are gone and they were just for the the 12. Um, maybe they thought it was just for them only, but it grieves my spirit because I I agree with you that the enemy has hijacked or tried to hijack the supernatural, and he is a counterfeit, and he's gotten pretty good at it, right? Like he's got a lot of like Hollywood 4K special effects that make it all look really, really powerful. But I think it's one of the reasons why the church is not drawing new people. We've abdicated our authority. We don't know fully what our authority is. And the enemy has used trauma to prevent people from operating in their fullness because those injuries, however, those injuries occurred, we're walking around wounded, many of us. And so wounded people cannot fully operate in their authority and in their role, their leadership, their calling, um, until those wounds are appropriately dealt with. And so when you have that, kind of the wounds of trauma, the wounds of dysfunction, in addition to the lies of the enemy, he's

Trauma Identity And Spiritual Authority

SPEAKER_01 31:31

unfortunately created this sort of trifecta approach that suspends and sort of holds the church and and God's people captive in many, many ways if we don't break free.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yes, and that is so good. I remember the second part of the question too. It was about um how people distinguish their thoughts from voice of Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

But what you're saying is so good because one of the things that I've noticed that the enemy tries to do is inflict trauma to on people at various stages of life to get them in this shell where they don't know who they are. Because operating in the gifts, the miraculous, that's an that comes from identity. You know, I talk about in my book how after I got saved, these demons started physically manifesting in front of me and physically hitting me every night. And so a lot of people's like, huh? Did you dream it? No, it wasn't a dream. I saw, I was asleep, I saw the thing coming, I opened my eyes, it kept coming. And I'm like rubbing it, trying, you know how you try to wait a minute, this thing kept coming. So it was, it was hitting me, scratching me, all of the things every night. And the next morning, I would have the bruises to show up. You would have thought I was out there, you know, like they used to say when I was growing up, you know, giving them hands or something. You know, so and so, but this is how, and here's the thing. I was I was a new believer, I was attending a good worship fellowship, taught the word, like you know what I'm saying, believed in the gifts and powerful expressions of worship. And I prayed and I was like, God, make this stop. And in that moment, it seemed like he didn't answer, but he answered a different way. And I'm grateful for the way he answered. What he did was, what he did was he taught me about my authority. I prayed and prayed and prayed for it to stop, and it never, God didn't stop it sovereignly. But what he ended up doing is one morning at the worship fellowship I attended, they did a class on the believer's authority. And they started teaching on the authority of the believer. And they gave us the book written by um Kenneth Hagen Sr. I get the book, and it wasn't a thick book, but I still read that thing. And one day I was like, listen, after I read that book, it was on. I was waiting on them things to come. And they came, and the moment I exercise my authority, they flee. Now they came back two more times because that just like the enemy, he'll still try you to see if you really know what you say you know. That's, you know, he'll try to try your faith. And the scripture talks about every word being tested. And so that's why, too, for some of your listeners, they may get a word from God. God may speak something to them in their prayer time, or they may go to a fellowship and hear a prophetic word and wonder why it seemed like the opposite started breaking forth, is because every word is tested. And so they came back two more times. Each time I told them to go in the name of Jesus. After that, boom, they didn't come back anymore. Because and so I share that story because we have to learn how to exercise our authority. And the enemy tries to rob us of our identity, which then prevents us of walking in authority, which then prevents us from advancing the kingdom. Because in all because everything we do is wrapped up in the knowing who God is and who we are in God.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Yes. So you've already highlighted two great resources. So tell us um the title of your book and then the book by Kenneth Hagen Sr.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yes. So my book is called the name of it is Called Out: Dismantling the Occult and Living with the Power of Jesus as your normal. And I share some of the things that I experienced and I was wrongfully taught um as a child, and how my first encounter with hearing the voice of God was audible. Which is so funny because we're talking about the listening leader. The first time I really listened and heard God's voice, it was audible. But I thank God that he did that because my whole life I had been trained to hear the voice of other spirits. Because again, the occult imitates the kingdom. So they were teaching meditation. The unbiblic biblical meditation is meditating on the word. This meditation about clearing your mind and centering your thoughts, that's unbiblical because that opens the door for the demonic. So I was doing that until I heard God's voice. And so the book talks about all the things that I experienced, how God took me out of that, and what he taught me about kingdom, what he taught me about walking with him intimately, hearing his voice, and the power, his power being normal for us. And so that's in my book. It's the title is called out. Um, it's available everywhere, Amazon, everywhere, my website. But the other book I referenced is called The Believer's Authority, and it's by Kenneth Hagin Sr. It's an old book. It was written a long time ago, but the revelation in it is so timely and timeless. And so that book really helped me to understand who I am in God. And the way it was written, it's full of scripture. It's not just him teaching and explaining. It's like boom, boom, boom. So I was reading those scriptures, getting them in me. And that helped me. Because here's the thing, too. When we study scripture, when we break down the word and we study it, we also have to meditate on it and get it in us. Sometimes we study something and then we move on to so quick that we didn't get that word in us. And so we have to really give the word time to be in us so that what's in us comes out.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

That's good. Oh my gosh. So we're gonna have to unfortunately wrap up in a little bit. So I'm trying to decide like which way to go because there's so many different ways we could go. Um, you know, I think I just want to highlight something that came up as you were sharing, and that is one of the whys that the Western church, the church predominantly in America, not saying other countries aren't this way, but I know for sure this deception is out there, and I think it prevents us from walking in our authority and knowing how to war in the spirit realm, which is why we end up picking up the earthly tactics. We rely on who we vote for, we rely on I'm gonna network and I'm gonna

Easy Life Myth And Kingdom Warfare

SPEAKER_01 38:17

get my name out there. We rely on worldly practices to overcome challenges. And I believe part of a big reason why is because there's this false perception in the American church that if we are saved, if we are believers and we pretty much lead a pretty good life, that we should have an easy life, that we should be wealthy, our our family should be perfect, we should have the perfect marriage, we should be physically in shape. Like there should be no resistance, no friction anywhere in our life. And I think that that lie makes us impotent. It really prevents us from learning what it means to even walk in our authority and understand, based on our identity, the authority and the power that we have. We are seated in heavenly places through Christ Jesus. We are fighting from a place of victory. But I also recognize as someone with trauma in my own background that the enemy will try to punk us into believing that we don't have any authority because of all the things, all the challenges, all the hardships, all the whatever, the uncertainty in the economy, you know, the uncertainty with our political and economic system and all the things that we see around us. He uses them to distract us and to think that we don't have the victory and the authority that we do.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Absolutely. And I love what you said, because he does try to punk us. He plays mind games because, like I said earlier, he's disarmed. He doesn't have any weapons. So all he can do is try to make you make the believer think that they are not who they are. So he plays those mind games to get us to forfeit. Because the thing about that we have to understand, and this is a spiritual principle, and I don't want it to be too deep, but it's also reality. There is no such thing as empty space. If we don't occupy a space, it's going to be occupied by the enemy. There is no empty space. And everything you said about the disillusionment of spiritual warfare is true. But here's the thing: God does desire us to have all those things that you listed because it reflects kingdom. But promises, while we receive them by faith, they're still come with some contending for them to be our reality. And so sometimes we don't, we forget about the contending part because when Israel entered their promised land, they they not only entered, but then there was a contending or a space to exercise dominion or to possess. My apostle said it this way is one thing to enter your promise, is another thing to possess and take ownership of it. And see, that's where the warfare comes in. And most people believe spiritual warfare is the enemy's attacking me. He attacked this, he attacked that, he attacked that. Go get the oil and let me anoint stuff. You know, and it's too, and it's so many things wrong with that perspective. One, if you anointed your house once, and lest the Lord tell you, you don't need to anoint it again. The olive oil may rub off, but the anointing doesn't. You know what I'm saying? It's not, it's not like it didn't work the first time. And so, and so, but the the thing about warfare is this, and that the Lord showed me recently. Warfare is more offensive than defensive. When you, because our careers, our jobs, our businesses, our deployment, because God speaks in military terms. That's why the term apostle is used in scripture, because that's a military general. And so we as believers, when we are witnessing the Great Commission, is the Great Commission actually means, is actually referring to us to go and take territory. We are called the church, the ecclesia, which refers to a legislative body who makes and enforces laws. And so by nature, when God sends us somewhere, we're sent there, as the scripture says in Isaiah, to plant the heavens, meaning this space now is the territory of heaven. And whatever used to occupy it now has to go. And because you are ejecting demonic and evil influence and darkness and confusion and all of those things from that space, of course, they're going to attack. And they don't mind attacking you a believer if the believer doesn't know who they are. But remember this in the scripture when Paul cast the demon out of, or when the seven sons of Skewa tried to cast a demon out of the person, that spirit spoke to them and said, Paul, Jesus, I know, Paul, I know, but who are you?

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

See, when you know who you are, the demonic realm knows who you are, and they don't want to be around you. They will stay away from you. They will try to avoid you. I've heard testimony of people who used to be in witchcraft and stuff, and who were a lot deeper than my experience. They even were told that when this specific man of God comes, leave the area and don't attack him. And don't go back to that area for 30 days after he leaves because of the presence of God. And so that's that happens when we walk, know who we are and walk in it. And so warfare comes as a result of us advancing the kingdom. And sometimes people get caught off guard because they're wondering, what did I do? Did I sin? No, you obeyed God and you advanced the kingdom. And now the enemy is fighting to occupy a space that belongs to you. No different than the people of Jericho tried to fight to keep their land, but it didn't work out.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Wow. Okay, Pastor Jamal. Uh, you have dropped so many wonderful nuggets. I feel like I'm gonna have to go back and listen to this myself and uh really glean everything that you've shared with us. You are an author, a mentor. I know that you are an igniter of mer miracle leaders. As we get ready to wrap up, I do want you to share with us how people can get in touch with you and check out all of your resources and programs. But I want you to speak to the person who might be listening that's kind of new, like who might be saying, Whoa, Kelly, you took me really far. I was not expecting that from this conversation. But um I want to try to meet people where they are. You know, we're all on a journey, we're all growing. And so if someone is new to trying to listen and discern the voice of God on a practical level, what encouragement or advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Absolutely. And I love that because we we all are on a journey. And so I would give the advice from earlier to be okay with different types of prayer, meaning that it doesn't have to always be one-sided. Sometimes their prayer time could be them sitting and listening, other times it could be them talking, them journaling, or them declaring and speaking the word over themselves. So they don't get locked into how you think prayer is supposed to be. But also remember that your ability to hear God is not based, is

How To Trust You Hear God

SPEAKER_00 45:31

partly based on you, but not totally based on you. Our part is to posture ourselves. Holy Spirit helps us to hear his voice because the scripture says, Jesus said, My sheep know my voice, and a stranger they won't follow. So you have to trust that you know God's voice and don't believe the lie of the enemy where it says, Oh, you just thought it it wasn't God. Because sometimes, like I said earlier, the voice of God initially can seem like it's your own thought. And so you you sit with it. And you as you journal or and capture what the Lord is saying, and as you keep studying the word, your ability to hear him will be sharper and sharper the more confident you are, too, in saying, I know his voice. I don't follow a stranger, I will not be deceived, I can't be deceived, because here's the last thing I would say. Some people misquote the scripture and they say the very elect will be deceived. But that's not what it says. It says, if possible, the very elect will be deceived. So a lot of people think they can't hear God or they are concerned about some other spirit talking to them or them hearing or their own thoughts leading them astray. They have to calm down and say, listen, and just declare of themselves, Father, thank you that I know your voice. A stranger I won't follow. I cannot be deceived because the word says it's not possible for me to be deceived. We're designed to hear him. And then just rest in it. And sometimes it may seem small as to what we think we hear, but it it'll expand, it gets sharper over time the more we give ourselves to listening.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah. I'm gonna have you tell us how to get in touch with you in just a second, but I'll I'll add to what you're saying. Number one, it's important to write down what we hear, as you've already indicated. But what I have found in my own journey is that as I journal and document, sometimes I just put it in my phone if I can't get to my paper journal. You'll start to notice different patterns sometimes for different seasons. Now, God is not, he's not cookie cutter. So he may speak in one way one day, another way, um, another day, but you start to recognize his character and his heart. In addition, like we already said, does it align with scripture, but also does it align with his character, his nature, his heart, testing it against the fruit of the Holy Spirit, which is in Galatians? So if it's condemning, that ain't God, right? He will convict, but condemnation, there is now therefore no condemnation to those of us who are in Christ Jesus. And so we get sharper the more we practice this. Just like working out, just like public speaking, the more we do it, the better we get at it. And so I think that's another reason why writing it down is so important because it is sharpening our ability to hear and discern. And I also think it's a part of the stewardship of being a listening leader. The Lord wants to know that, hey, if I'm a look, I love all my children. And if some of my children are not really, you know, they're not wisely stewarding what I'm giving them, then we may not get to see everything that God has for us. You know, my I have a teenage daughter, and so sometimes she ain't stewarding all the things that I give her, and I would like to give her more. You know, she wants a certain car. And I'm like, no, you're gonna get that hand-me-down car outside that's out front because I can't trust you with the nice car that you think you want or that you want. I can't trust you with that yet. You need to show yourself faithful with little. And then as you show that consistency and the faithfulness with maybe the little parts of God's voice that you're hearing today, over time, you will get to hear more. And so just those principles, those biblical principles that we see in other areas, like money management, resource gifting management, that applies to hearing his voice. So, okay, I'm gonna stop there. Tell us how we can get in contact with you, and then maybe just give us a quick prayer out.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Absolutely. So people can go to my website, jamalmaxim.org, my first and last name.org, and it gives all my resources are there. Information about my podcast, my book, mentorship, all of that is all of that is there. Plus, I'm on all the socials, so they definitely can just search my name on the socials and find me. But yeah, I love what you said, and so let's let's pray before we have to do a part two.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah. So, Father, thank you. Thank you for all that are listening, God, and for all that was

How To Connect And Closing Prayer

SPEAKER_00 50:11

said. Some things may have been uncomfortable or challenging, other things may have been confirming. But we thank you that in the midst of this conversation, you were speaking and meeting every listener where they are. God, I thank you that you not only met them where they are, but you extended invitation for them to come closer and to walk with you in a more intimate way. So thank you, Father, that as they apply the principles that were spoken, God, to capture your voice and to capture what they hear from you. That God, they will begin to recognize the different ways you speak and hear you speak even more. I thank you for awakening them like the pen of a ready writer. I thank you, Lord, that as they as you continue to speak to them and they steward it, you would give them more. You will reveal yourself even more as you desire to. Thank you for revealing yourself to them and revealing yourself through them in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Amen. Thank you. That was beautiful. I knew this would be a rich conversation, and uh we may have to do a part two because I know that there's more. Thank you so much for joining.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Thank you for flowing with me today. If this episode strengthened your spirit and leadership, be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. Remember, deeper clarity starts in community. Visit IamKellyJohnson.com for free devotionals and to learn more about Raya Circles, where faith and leadership truly go together in the flow.